SHIPS: Seagoing vessels without oars. Useful to clear the sea from other seagoers. Join the navy, travel the world, meet a lot of interesting people and sink them all. Shp(S): Multiple-masted vessels with manpower Friends: not needed Enemies: poor navigational skills Shp(O): Single-masted small coasters. Friends: enough PIPs Enemies: Shp(S) Shp(I): A safe way to deploy baggage unlootably Friends: suitable weather Enemies: other seafarers Shp(X): Cimbals and other Roman patents for marine warfare Friends: other Shp Enemies: Archimedes GALLEYS: Oar-powered vessels. Unlike many tend to think, no slaves used here. Galley slavery became common only during the 16th century. Ben-Hur was wrong. Gal(S): Clumsy but powerful floating forts, such as those of the SJMC Friends: Gal(F) Enemies: Shp(S) and Bts(F) Gal(O): Best used against any lesser naval Friends: other Gal(O) Enemies: Shp(S) Gal(F): Seaborne self-sufficient oar-powered raiders Friends: few, if any Enemies: tricky weather BOATS: Deckless vessels for lesser seafare. Usually useful for seaborne raiding and invasions. Bts(S): Ramless galleys with low depth Friends: good shore to disembark Enemies: Gal(F) Bts(O): Small boats useful for flumine warfare Friends: Ax at the disembarking point Enemies: Shp(S) and (O) Bts(F): Nastities useful against enemy galleys Friends: Own galleys Enemies: Any Shp
Steve Burt
I stumbled across an article on this very subject last night while looking for something else. Wargames Illustrated #31. Naval Warfare in Ancient & Medieval China. Describes boats from the Han through to the Ming. There are 3 line drawings of an oared Han vessel, a big 'tower ship' (which I assume is a paddle wheeler since it has neither sails nor oars) and a bizarre two-part ship with the front half loaded with explosives.
Skytrex does some very DBM friendly Roman/Carthaginian/Phonecian ships.
Village Green make a 15mm Longship. I know that Two Dragons sell the Village Green ship, not sure where else they might be available from.
Vic Pocilujko
Nic at Eureka has some Irregular 6mm scale longboats, galleys, general purpose sail boat (all 60mm long), and row boats (20mm long). The most expensive is the galley at œ8.25. They are not great examples of the art of sculpting but they are available as naval elements for DB*.
There will also be a 6mm sampan/Asian river boat 20-25mm long available soon. Modesty forbids me praising the sculptor. Other DB* naval pieces to follow.
Bruce Gordon
I use the 1/1200 ships made by Navwar. I have not seen their Byzantine = Dromon but have Greek and Roman fleets which are look good but not = great. A number of them on a DBM base would be effective. Ihaven't done = this yet as I originally bought them for naval warfare.
Don Kostello
Glencoe makes a 1/400 scale junk that works very well with 15mm, and better hobby shops should have little problem getting them. (Brookhurst is getting me some more.)
Haven't tackled galleys yet, but the one illustration I've seen of an 19th century craft suggests a low slung junk shape with both sails and long sweeps.
Bonsai supplies include miniature bridges, pagodas, cranes, philosophers, AND boats - sampans with a small sail, in ceramic.
I also had a posting saying that Falcon does 1/300th boats, one of them far eastern - sorry, no details. Also, Lindberg and Langton were mentioned as possibilities. Again, no details.
Peter Pig, however, makes one ancient ship model specifically for 15mm DBM which is basically a late Roman galley.
Yes
Q. How do naval elements move along rivers? Can they reverse direction?
Well you measure the move as the furthest distance any corner actually moves!! What's the problem - this is fairly basic stuff! Remember that only boats can move on rivers, and then only if they're at least 1 element wide (the river that is). Of course they can reverse - just like any other element.
Wanax
Q. Do you have to field naval elements if they have access to the board? (Note removed 1 as it is untrue)
2. If there is no WW, then ships bought are not fielded and those points are lost. The EE from the ships can still be deploy on land.
3. Rv that are not within your deployment area at the start can not have your boats in it, and if there is no access by other mean then they too are lost. Again the EE from the boats can be deployed as normal land EE.
4. Ships can be used as a flank march and thus not deployed. I love this tactic, as it scares people more than any real effect on combat. You do have to roll for a flank march, but that is hardly a give away in this case.
Adrian Brooks
Q. If an expendable is in close combat with galleys or ships that overlap. Ships roll 6, expendables roll 1. Ships have 3 + 6 + 1 = 10, expendables have 4 + 1 = 5, so they flee. For any other die result of the exp, they are destroyed. Is that correct?
I know Phil is aware of this one, certainly pre 1.3. His rationilisation was that if the general was stupid enough to send his expendables at naval (expendables being designed for bowling down men on foot as opposed to large wooden structures), those elements which were destroyed are those suicidal enough to follow orders (the prime attribute of any expendable crewman), those being doubled the crew sensible enough to know better and run away without making contact.
Kevin Donovan
Q. Can naval elements dis/embark when a side edge is in contact with land or does it have to be the bow?
It seems that any edge is ok. This was a surprise to me when Morgan pointed it out a few weeks ago.
John Shirey & Kevin Donovan
Q. Can a Naval element be deployed in a minimum width WW?
Naval elements can be deployed on a minimum width WW, ie 300p, with their naval landing elements, ie with their land elements.
Steve Burt & Kevin Donovan
Q. Do impetuous troops on board naval elements impetuously disembark once the naval are in contact with land?
No, because while on board ship they just make the boat laden rather than unladen. Their troop type is irrelevant till they disembark. Naval are never impetuous, so nor are the marines, until they get ashore.
Q.If we were fighting with ships on a WW, and I turned the flank of an inshore enemy element. It turns to face leaving no room to recoil (no beach), and of course it dies. Now does its zone of death take out the friendly troops sitting on the shoreline??
Kevin Donovan
Yes, naval elements zone of death gets land element but not vice versa. (I don't remember if this will change in 2.0)
I was wrong; naval *do* have a zone of death, but are not themselves ever subject to zones of death, hence my confusion. So they are not killed by each other, or by land elements, but they do kill elements on the shore if they get wrecked nearby. Most strange. As George has pointed out, this should be fixed by making Naval have no ZOD. I can't think of a rational reason for them to have one, and the circumstances only arise once in a blue moon anyway, so it is hardly going to affect game balance. (In DBM 2, if this isn't fixed, they will have a huge ZOD because the ZOD is now a base *depth* - two base widths for Naval).
John Shirey
Q. On the subject of baggage, if a "Naval Element retiring for the night"does not count as lost (p25) what about Shp(I) baggage? Can it "retire for the night?"
Yes and is not considered to be lost. Then again very few armies can have Shp(I) baggage, it must be in their list in order to have it, so its not that big of a deal.
Kevin Donovan
Q. If you have a mounted element that can dismount as, say, Bd; and If you have a naval unit that can transport, say, Bd; can you transport the mounted element and let them remount once they wade onto shore?
No. You have to have Shp (I) which transport Kn (or whatver) to allow them to ever remount. However if they can dismount as Bd (S) and you can transport Bd then you can have a dismounted general on the ship.
Kevin Donovan
Q. What the heck happens when naval elements "drift"? This hadn't happened to either of us before and we couldn't find it in the book. Obviously they must move directly downwind, but how far?
Drifting only occurs in strong wind. The element does not actually move, instead it is elminiated if wthin one base width and upwind of the shore and the element neither moved nor was halted that bound.
Q. How many EEs do the crews count as? And the boats?
Rather their crews each count as one EE. (See p 25). Note also that even Hd and Ps that are naval landing parties count as one full EE and not as 1/2 an EE as they normally do. The boats count as 0 EE.
Note this changes in DBM 2.0 Hd and Ps are 1/2EE
Q. When a general is on Gal, Ship or boat do the +1 to shooting and close combat factor count to the naval element?
Kevin Donovan
YES.
Luke Ueda-Sarson
I DON'T THINK SO, but I'm not sure. As a first guess, I would say 'yes', BUT, there is a list (Komnenan Byzantine, Book 4, List 1) that says (I can't remeber which) "Extra to upgrade Venetia galley flagship of ally-general @ + 10 points..........***1", and it doesn't say extra to upgrade the naval landing troops to the ally-general like all other lists do. Therefore, I think that this is the only naval element that gets the +1 combat bonus - but it's landing troops do not, because the admiral stays on the ship (the ship is upgraded, not the landing troops).
Philippe Le Mercier
The rules explains that only the general element is +1, and "naval elements are carring land elements" (translation from french translated rule). This indicates IMHO that naval element is different than land element (even in naval), so does not benefit of the +1, except if nelson is in as explained by Luke. who's right sailor?
Here's some interesting things to do with 2 Naval elements:
To confuse opposition about possible flank marches. I was looking at Han Chinese, and noticed they get 16 naval elements - so possibly a 16 element command entirely waterborne.
In a competition you might flank march them all on a WW in one game, after which EVERYONE would know you had this force. In subsequent games it would be interesting to flank march on the LAND side and leave the boats off-table - - that would surprise the sh*t out of that player!
Once you'd marched that command on a land and sea flank people would get a bit twitchy :-)
Kevin Donovan
Remember that impetuous troops ignore naval units (including baggageon
David Kinchen
For DBM 2000 you should really look at acquiring some naval. If you defend and put down a river and it is navigable (2/3 or better chance in each sector unless frozen) then the board would effectively be restricted to the with of either side of the river as naval passing through waders will now destroy them. ships) as they are in or beyond terrain the impetuous troops cannot enter.
John Shirey
If you've taken at least 1/2 the max number of naval allowed by your list then you can place a WW. Since you're the attacker you can't place a BUA. Also you can't adjust the size of a WW or BUA that's placed by the defender.
David Kinchen For DBM 2000 you should really look at acquiring some naval. If you defend and put down a river and it is navigable (2/3 or better chance in each sector unless frozen) then the board would effectively be restricted to the with of either side of the river as naval passing through waders will now destroy them.
Luke Ueda-Sarson
An entirly embarked naval command does NOT have to have any baggage! It's in the front of the army lists.
Mike Campbell
Also - baggage on boats is not baggage - it is Ships(I) - under "Naval Landing Forces" it says that ships (I) SUBSTITUTE for baggage. Not only that, but the baggage does not count as a landing element, so you can't unload it!
So the demoralised ships coming to shore would count as demoralised enemy, but never as baggage.
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